operation fix mc10

[ted johnson]

ARP has already done the engineering to make the bolt we need. Unfortunately since they found that they didn't already have the tooling and material for 10-32 threads the cost went up to a little over $20 per bolt in a 1000 bolt production run. I worked with them for a couple of months off and on since I live about 1 mile from their plant and I know a member of their staff. If enough people want to put together an order they will make the bolts. I didn't pursue it further because I was told no one would pay that much and then everyone seemed willing to pay the same price for the new bolts that apparently are having some initial problems. I wasn't going to be selling bolts. All I was doing was trying to get them made.

Hi, Michael. I know that ARP has the facilities and the engineering skill to make these screws, to properly roll the threads and to heat treat them. Are they talking Mac-length or West Bend length? Are they talking that Multiphase MP159 alloy that was used on Dave B.'s screws? It's a pretty exotic alloy with some nifty components like nickel, cobalt and chromium. I see that there are several suppliers who sell the bar stock. I will bet it isn't cheap. Ted
https://www.aircraftmaterials.com/data/n...mp159.html

[Michael Burke]

Terry Ives told me that a .660 length would work for WB's and Mc's. ARP planned for that length. I think it may have all been discussed on the bolt thread. The material was going to be the same high strength material that they use for other high stress applications. Once I was told that few would pay the cost per bolt that was quoted I called them and said it was on hold until further notice. I was somewhat surprised when I saw the posts where many were willing to pay slightly more for the ones currently having some teething issues than what I was quoted by ARP. I'm sure that in time those will be solved. ARP has done the engineering and will make the bolts anytime someone wants to place the order. The bolts are considered to be mine, but I told them to let anyone order them as long as they don't try to be the only one that can buy them from ARP. It keeps us from being held hostage by someone choosing to never let the bolts be ordered by anyone else later on. They will make just one bolt for a customer if that's what is requested. Prices are based on number of units ordered. 

[ted johnson]

Thanks, Michael. Lots of NHRA and NASCAR builders trust ARP, so that's a good basis. It'd be good to have the issue solved once and for all. TJ

[David Luciani]

we've discussed this before. 
we see a part needing to be repopped.
we find a good source willing to make the correct part.
then they say minimum order is this many units and everyone runs for the hills.
not surprising when we're talking 20,000 bux to buy about ten boxes worth of exotic bolts.

we'd need either someone with lots of cash or a need for lots of those bolts.
U.S. motors could easily do the purchase .
they probably will when they run out of their own bolts unless they redesign their rod.

some day we'll finally get it together and form a buying club for  high cost parts.
in other motor sports they've come across this issue and solved it by creating a buying club.

every year or so a part is selected by club members that needs to be repopped .
the club uses the pooled money to order the part and club members get the part at cost.
the excess is offered to non members with a fair profit.
all the money returns to the parts purchase pool for the next needed part.

d

[ted johnson]

The REAL permanent solution is for US Motor Power to be convinced to supply the super screws in every engine they sell, as Mr. Bonbright suggests. That'd amortize the cost over a large base and lower the cost per set of screws to a level that's manageable for the racing group as well as for the engine buyer. It would be a good deal for all. Now all we need is a spokesperson with the energy to confer with the powers that be at USMP. Knowing someone on "the inside" would help. The problem with this, is also in the solution.... The fact that they are reusable means fewer screws sold. Fewer screws sold means higher cost. Higher cost means fewer screws bought. Fewer screws bought means higher cost per screw... AAAAUUGGGHHH!   Ted

[Kurt Bogerman]

Oh, jeez... I think we're losing Ted... He's running away... Shut him down!

[ted johnson]

He's just tired of getting SCREWED!  Actually, there are several possible solutions. Since USMP has Mr. Bonbright's documentation for a proven bolt, and since they have need of such a bolt, This would be the No. 1 way out. The second way is the way that Michael describes, with ARP taking charge. A third way is for K Precision Motorsports to iron out their difficulties and get their bolt to a point where there are zero issues with its use. Yet another way is for a different, experienced manufacturer to step forward. I will admit to being spoiled. I've been buying Engine Masters' (Dave Bonbright's) bolts directly from Dave for a long time. I have run them hard, and it is easy to just forget all the work that went into designing them. I install them, run them, rebuild my engines and reuse the screws at least once. I AM spoiled. TJ

[Kurt Bogerman]

BTW, Dave...

I read those piston documents last night. Very interesting information!

Good luck with your mc10. With all the hype surrounding it, I'm eager to see you "demonstrate" the ways in which it manages combustion in such a superlative manner!

[steve welte]

I'm still in for bolts but there just wasn't enough interest on the ARP deal. That would have left someone holding a lot of inventory for a long time with a LOT of money involved. I'm always interested but there is a limit.

[David Luciani]

kurt,
it isn't hype.
when it was on it was unbeatable.
when it ran poorly it was because i made tuning mistakes with carb.


not sure if it'll be as good with new piston.
the problem with three moving parts engines is there are only three moving parts.
change one and you risk upsetting something un-measurable.
we'll see if i get it rebuilt in time.

it might be all for nothing a far as Avon goes.
there are some things going on in my world that may keep me from attending.

d