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It has to end
You did a great job Vico. You are someone that I know I don't have to worry about. You get it! For your age you are a class act. I wish some adults were as mature as you.
Hey Steve..... You started an interesting thread here. Even though I was not in attendance at any of the events you mention briefly here I believe the subject is for all events. I hear what you are saying and I share many of the same concerns you bring up. Anyway, here's my 2 cents.

The problem is one of different mindsets and perspectives.

Not everyone sees Vintage Karting through the same lens. Some are in it for the Nostalgia. Some for the History. For some it's to find, build and restore some pretty amazing and beautiful machines. Others are there to race, period. Frankly, this last group, if that is the only reason for participation, they really belong somewhere else.

For the nonsense to stop all the reasons above have to be appreciated, respected and at the very least understood by everyone involved.

I love racing and the thought of going to a Vintage Karting Event without it definitely paints a picture of something I would never want to see. With that said I think everyone who decides to participates needs to realize that what we do is Racing "BUT"!

What do I mean? What is this "BUT"?
For me, this is what it boils down to:

It's Racing "BUT"
There are, for the most part, a bunch old guys out there that don't heal like they use to.

It's Racing "BUT"
Most of the karts out there are restored and are, to their owners, priceless works of art that can not be replaced.

It's Racing "BUT"
There are no weight restrictions in any classes.

It's Racing "BUT"
Rules regarding modifications and fuel are, except for Yamaha, nonexistent.

It's Racing "BUT"
Some of the competitors haven't driven or raced a kart in 20, 30, or even 40 years.

It's Racing "BUT"
Some of the competitors are really just out there for the fun of being in a kart.

It's Racing "BUT"
Everyone would really like to make the trip home and live to talk about how much fun they had.

I could go on and on but I think I have made my point.

If you win, what did you win? Considering all the "BUT"s, what did you prove?
Racing can be fun. We need to put things into perspective and keep it that way. 

If the choice is to break someones neck, destroy their kart, or simply take your foot out of it...... You really need to take your foot out of it! Let's all go to these events, have some fun, gawk at some karts, and go home in one piece (Karts included).

It is Racing "BUT"

......and that's the way I see it,
Many good points have been made. The way I see it is that there are at least 4 types of crashes. 1- The aggressive driver in over their head. 2- The driver trying to stay out of the way, resulting in their moving into the path of faster traffic. 3- Mechanical failure, some foreseeable, some not. And the simple unintentional innocent driving errors. Respect for each other, education, good mechanical prep and some conservative driving (just because you think you can squeeze into a hole does not mean you have to go there) could eliminate most of the issues. Like everybody else on this site. I love this hobby, want to go home safe and know all my fellow participants made it home safely too. Cool heads and some conservative decisions need to prevail.
(06-19-2017, 01:02 PM)steve welte Wrote: The aggressive driving, contact and disrespect for others has to end. The vintage karting future is at stake. It's your choice. It seems to be at every event. When you can't practice on a 1 mile track, 40' wide safely something is very wrong. I will be preparing some type of discussion on the VKA site whether anyone wants to hear it or not.

VKA site seems to be up.
(06-20-2017, 01:36 PM)Walter Dale Wrote:
(06-19-2017, 01:02 PM)steve welte Wrote: The aggressive driving, contact and disrespect for others has to end. The vintage karting future is at stake. It's your choice. It seems to be at every event. When you can't practice on a 1 mile track, 40' wide safely something is very wrong. I will be preparing some type of discussion on the VKA site whether anyone wants to hear it or not.

VKA site seems to be up.
damn Russians,,,hacking our website,,,

and actually... its not racing ....but...but for a few that are still trying to win that National Championship they never won in the 70s...guess what,,,you are no better now than you were in the 70s,,go have some fum,,1st or last its all the same in Vintage,,,

#16 goin back ..
am I gonna try to do better ..heck yes ...!!
do I plan on winning my class ..sorta ..!! I have a chance to win ., maybe ..but pretty doubtful ..!!
do I care ...nope ... !!
am I gonna have fun ...guaranteed
Gary, when you have a checkered flag drop and have a bunch of guys trying to get in front of each other I'm sorry to break it to you....... it's a race.

I added the "BUT" onto the end of race because there are numerous factors that should have some bearing on ones behavior. Again, if we are out there at speed and trying to get ahead of one another, much like I have seen you do, we just need to have a little perspective. Nothing wrong with a race. Just keep everything in perspective.
(06-19-2017, 09:24 PM)Duke Zink Wrote: Just to add to my rant above, I did not have a single one of Jeff's people ask me if I was ok or check on me later in the day. I had plenty of racers ask me and track personnel but not once from any of his people, not even when I turned in my transponder or told the race director I was out.
Duke give me a call  248-613-5839.  I wasn't aware you were hurt. The ambulance with 2 full time EMT's were there and didn't tell me.   The track personnel are my people also, every worker was paid to do a job.
Sorry you were unhappy with the event.  
Short and sweet - and consistent with what I have been saying since being involved in a very dangerous "not-allowed" "Texas Start" at my very first vintage event - and have with great disgust declined to participate in my group at more recent VKA events where the group makeup included very fast karts and not-so-fast karts, and the fast guys were guilty of very, very bad behavior.

VKA's posted information says we are not racing.  That's not true.

VKA's rules about contact are generally not enforced.

I belong to a karting club that had a fatality some years ago.  It devastated the club leadership.

If I were the insurance underwriter (and I do expert witness work for these folks), and you came to me with a fatality, I would look at the data provided, conclude (pretty obviously) that we were actually racing, and I would deny coverage.

Some conclusions I have drawn:

1.  VKA had ought to be sure that while they are purporting to run "demonstration" events, that they are indeed races and should be insured as such.  VKA leadership may have this already in hand.

2.  We need to enforce the rules, whether we call them rules or not.  Inappropriately aggressive drivers need to be black flagged, not just for a session, but for an entire event.  Repeated black flags should get them banned from events for a year.

3.  Each of us should chose carefully who we drive with on the track, be it "practice" or a mock heat.

4.  Make-up of classes and even practice sessions should be organized to minimize the "speed shear" (differential in speed of types of karts).  Even if we just did alternating "fast" and "slow" groups it would be a good thing.

5.  If you really have the need to actually race, then do what I do, dammit.  Join a local club, get a modern race kart and actually race.  This is my 20th consecutive year racing modern karts at my home karting club.  If I can do, so can you.

My humble opinion.  And we all know what opinions are like.......

Ciao, my friends.
Jim Waltz, West Sacramento, CA
I have been saying the same things for years but it has only got worse.

A couple things.....
Avon has practice by class which definitely decreases the "speed sheer" effect.

We have limited the "trophy events" to five classes. The rest of the classes get to run heats but because there is no line up or rewards, they are much more casual & fun.

All that being said, running 40-50 year old karts is inherently dangerous, especially for old guys like me. Last year at Avon a really good driving guy (you know who you are) was out there practicing all by himself and ended up upside down with a ruined kart and some REALLY bad road rash injuries. Not his fault, things happen and we all need to be aware of this.

Hopefully our event will go smoothly and we will make sure to do our best to make it safe. Black flags will be at hand!!
You can count on that.

Hope to see a bunch of you at Avon in July!!!

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