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Pto centering
#31
now i am getting confused i remember talking to the owner of Max torque and i think he said
if i remember correct that after trying all the new types some are going back to the original chains and the most important oil
is the oil that comes when the chain is manufactured, and if you ever soak a chain in any kind of solvent to clean it, its over
throw it out i don't know how true this is but from my memory of the conversation it was more than a year ago when i was hunting
down a clutch and to stay in the vintage guide lines i will be running Max Torgue 10 tooth Mc90
Richard Stamile
Oceanside NY.
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#32
Richard, most of us don't wash a brand new chain before we run it, as the factory lube is quite good. HOWEVER, it doesn't last very long, and must be replenished, even in today's best chains. I clean the grunge from my chain by running it through a rag with WD40 on it. Old technology chains SUCK. There was insufficient clearance between inner roller link and the connecting side plates. Anyone who actually ran karts in the old days would never run old chain unless they were the anal type who have to have everything exactly as it was in the early days. A lot of these guys are the ones who run 91B1 Macs on their '61 Dart Karts and think the engine is "period correct". I gave up on total "period correctness" years ago. I want my vintage karts to look like 1962, and not to have technology that was unavailable in 1962, but I do run engines that were manufactured in later years, and I run carbs and manifolds from later years.
I am good friends with Jimmy Donovan, and I respect his knowledge very much. But if Jim says that 1960 style chain is better than current RLV chain, I most certainly do not agree. I well remember one of my friends snapping a Mac crank at the old Rockledge, Florida track when his chain got so short from kinking that the crank broke off at the step. The day I was at the big 103rd St. track in Jacksonville, and a fellow showed me the "new" space chain, I immediately switched. No more boiling, no more kinks, no more worn sprockets, no more friction from trying to force a chain shortened due to kinking over my sprockets. I cannot imagine why anyone who is running fast would want to run old type chain! If you want to install a 1960 chain for the kart show, great. But run it on the track? Never!
Some old clutches may have insufficient clearance between sprocket and drum for space chain. There you are stuck, unless you switch clutches. I would definitely go the switch clutch route and keep the space chain! TJ
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#33
Ted i don't think he said the old chain was better if i remember some were not getting the results that your are and some
not everyone are going back to older type chain design but maybe manufacture now with better metals and technology I don't know   i only know my friend
used to race at Blitz park stadium Commack LI in the 60s he had a Simplex challenger he said the biggest problem was
the chain snapping he was only around 12 at that time and was running a Clinton engine no powerful Mac and he was not overweight or
anything i know things were not all good with the old , I wish i would have remember the talk with him i don't want to put wrong info out
hope my memory is close to correct
Richard Stamile
Oceanside NY.
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#34
Richard, I just got off the phone with my pal, Pruit Ginsberg. He said that he knew about the issue of clearance between sprocket and drum with space chain. We both agreed that it's time to hunt out a clutch with more clearance. I think this trouble has more to do with Macs, and I run West Bends, so no issues. I used to run a 101 on my Swoopster repop, and I used space chain on that setup with no troubles. Maybe the fact that I ran 10T clutches was the reason. Anyhow, where there's a problem, there's a solution. As mechanics, it's incumbent upon our ingenuity to figure out that solution! Good hunting!
I can't remember ever having chain trouble on our Clintons back in '58, other than the normal kinking. Of course, I think we ran only 12 tooth clutches back then. Ted
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#35
As Ted knows I run a bunch of benders. Except for the duals I normally run a 9t. The tracks are so tight and we have to run so hard I have to use a 9T. Some of the tracks are also not smooth. To run a 10t and huge lower sprocket will just get you bent sprockets. Now if I wasn't trying to be competitive then i would run a 10 and just run a lower sprocket that will just maybe stay off the surface. Some of the tracks i have to run a 9/69/70. Your not going to run a 10 and the big sprocket and survive. I've even considered grinding every link plate on the drum side of the chain to eliminate the dimpling. the dimples get deep enough and it just like you used chisel to chop the sprocket off. Now where is that 9 1/2 tooth sprocket?
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#36
so i will run a 10t max toque with 70t sprocket and RLV  chain and hope for the best the good thing is i am having  
good time finally getting this Kart to the finish as you guys know this is a salvaged yard Kart with holes all over frame
still had all the important parts the wheels the steering wheel bendix brake no broken welds and frame was still solid so
everyone guidance here is a big plus
Richard Stamile
Oceanside NY.
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#37
(05-27-2020, 09:56 PM)steve welte Wrote: as a side note. I have run g0ld on g0ld RLV since getting back into karting in 2010. I probably run more than most. On a 9t Max torque it will dimple the sleeve until it eventually shears off leaving you stranded. Happened probably 10 times to me. I went back to old chain but that sure didn't work. I'm trying the black and silver now to see if that is a bit different. Either the chain is to large or the 9t is hobbed just a bit to much. I don't have an answer to this problem but when you drive 1200 miles one way to an event and the sprocket shears off on the first lap of the first heat you are not to happy. I know gearbox time. Not.

Yikes, that is really bad news.  Your hobbing theory sounds right.

As I  recall, the way that we use chain on our karts (pitch .375" for #35, 9k or 10k rpm or so, on a 9T sprocket) is COMPLETELY outside the engineering design rules for chain.  For one thing, the design charts I've seen only go down to 10T, and even there, everything has turned to crap (wear rate, noise, uneveness, chain stress, etc). 
Smaller pitch (like #219 @ .306") helps a lot, but it's still not great.
Obviously 9T sprockets at 10k rpm will get you around the track, but I can definitely see why people prefer to run 10T drivers and accept that they're more likely to whack the axle sprocket if one tire goes off the tarmac.

See attached.


Attached Files
.pdf   Chain_Tsubaki_white-paper.pdf (Size: 4.09 MB / Downloads: 6)
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#38
Well, Steve, the neck between drum and sprocket can only get so small! I also thought about the possibility of grinding the link plates, but I guess that's unrealistic. Maybe petition RLV to offer a special chain with reduced profile roller link plates. I realize the profile is probably a 100 year old standard, pre-ANSI/ASME B29.1 According to the ANSI standard, the link roller plate height should be .356, and I think that with a pitch diameter of 1.097 on a 9T No. 35 sprocket, the diameter over which the chain travels cannot exceed .741, unless I'm missing something. I don't have a 9T drum to measure, but with a 9/16" Mac shaft, plus the O.D. of the bushing, probably about .688, that doesn't leave much meat after the manufacturer leaves some clearance between chain roller link plate O.D. and the diameter of the neck between sprocket and drum. I imagine they're getting bushings of less than the .688 diameter, but that also doesn't leave much allowable bushing wall thickness. No wonder they howl after a short time of running! No wonder the roller link plates are hitting the neck! Ted
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#39
if i am understanding this correctly the part of the chain that's like a peanut shape part of the chain one on each side of the
barrel's hits the inside of the sprocket hub in-till the 9 0r 10 t parts off the engine, then if i am seeing this you would want to
grind off some of the metal so this does not happen sounds like the only way to do this is using a surface grinder accurately
or just taking like a 4 inch hand grinder and doing so you would pull some of the temper you may have even more problems 
if i am understand what the problem is
Richard Stamile
Oceanside NY.
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#40
You will probably never have the issue on a 10t sprocket. A 9 yes it happens. 219 can't be used on a rear kart per rules. I could fix each chain in about 15 min on my belt sander. But then when you go to 8 or 10 different tracks and need different chains and take 4 karts you can see where that's headed. If it wasn't for Jim Donavan I'm not sure where we would be with rear engine karts. The clutch choices are so slim.
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