brian s. like the idea of dual tracks.
my thoughts about jeffs event were more along the lines of he's 1/2 way there for a full national but you do make good points.
if we got comet to do event who would be the promoter.
the track type and location is important but the guy who runs it is equally essensial.
MAYBE SOME OF THE GUYS WHO ALREADY RUN SUCCESSFUL EVENTS WOULD BEE WILLING TO HELP AND MAYBE PICK SOMEBODY??
DANG CAPS lock
anyway
if theres enough interest i'd set up a specific section of the forum to discuss ideas and iron out format.
i think vka and vkca working together is very possible in theory.
both clubs have strong points together a great NATIONAL show is possIble
more thoughts.
- i can't find pix of a track associated with comet kart sales.
any help??
- there has to be at least one open track day/practice.
flagged races should be considered especially if theres two tracks so casual "at speed live track demos" can also be run same day different track.
- it's extremely important to discuss/pick the best date.
sometime that is generally open for people to attend is always best.
So we'd be picking a date that's clear of race obligations like nascar big regional stuff major car shows ect ect.
The more i consider this the logistics are pretty unbelievable .
But as a stage hand we do unbelievable daily so me i'm confident it's an achievable goal.
I've been following this thread, giving it some thought, and thinking that I would just throw my 2cents into the mix.
With all due respect for everyone's ideas I am not convinced that this would achieve much more then what other events do. It might draw some numbers but in the end most would probably be coming from the surrounding area of the event.
Now the other question would be..... Would something like this detract from attendance at other events? Probably.
I know, personally, I am working with limited funds and limited time. I am sure most others are in a similar situation. If I were to pick going to something like this I would surely have to cut out from another event. Maybe from two. Is that a good thing? I don't think so. Especially for the events I'd have to skip.
This thread was started as a reaction to some very sad news. The loss of a fellow Karter. Unfortunately one day, hopefully 100 years from now, we will all be gone. So then, where will this Vintage Karting stuff be?
In my humble opinion, I don't think we need to a create another more extravagant and bigger event. We already have big events! What we do need to do is just perfect the type of events we already have. Instead of looking to separate the "Shower", the "Racer", and the "Rider", we need to join them. Most of all we need to attract new and younger participants.
Each and every event is a celebration of the history of Karting. It is a time to remember those that have passed and those that are still here. It's a time to embrace the different developments of each era. It's a time to come together and see things the way they were. In order for any of this to continue, to have the old stories live on and be appreciated, we have to figure this whole thing out pretty quick......
Sometimes I can be a bummer,
-Al
Common sense always prevails......this was just an idea......doesn't look like there is much response to
a National Vintage Event.....other then those already on the agenda .
It's been suggested for those that want a National Get-to-Gather that it can be an invitation only deal
In the meantime support your regional Vintage programs or there may be no
place to meet and run these old machines ! Except by invitation or local parking lot outlaw gathering......Oooops
Looking outside the normal racing tracks there's other venues like Kart Kountry ....."What ?"
Al P. very good points.
i think it is a partial reaction to Chris going so young.
that was a shock.
i've long ago accepted most of my friends aren't youngsters but chris was 49 way to soon to me to say goodbye.
but we all live to die and nobody knows when.
having a major national event is a natural progression to what we are already doing. it is nice to consider it no need to rush into anything that's why we discuss things and weigh options.
you are totally right that merging the three different aspects of our hobby is far past due.
as you've learned it ain't an easy task.
another aspect of our hobby was a chris sahagian favorite.
that's a simple play day format single day sometimes less than six hours long.
it's based on attracting just the local guys kinda like a poker run for bikes or car clubs.
the idea is go to track or lot screw around a few hours perhaps enjoy and adult beverage or trash talk.
The event Ted Tine has coming up is exactly as chris saw vintage a simple day where we play with the karts at a mutually agreed on track.
in Teds case the facility is amazing but that's not key to success. a simple local parking lot on a sunday works as well.
on the national idea,
as i said date consideration would be key.
using an already existing event would also be useful.
Chuck G. pointed out the winter months are usually a wasteland and there are a couple of florida events shaping up lately.
so i'm floating a proposed winter national event possibly could in florida during the winter.
or california though for obvious reasons i'd chose the East Coast.
of course florida needs to still be there so we'll need to wait at least a week to see what shakes out!!!
anyway no need to kill the thread neat discussion and to me it never has to go past floating out ideas.
in fact
any about single day events or how to merge vka and vkca ideas into one event are welcome .
i'd here love to hear from the lurkers who never post!!!
Guys,
Unless I have heard wrong information over the years, the Dismore family is the money behind New Castle Raceway. The Dismore's own the Comet Kart Shop & the big web site. Diz sold me my first vintage kart, a Fox Lightweight.
Brian
I'm not sure if it's Dizmore or Dismore?
At Newcastle you could indeed set up two tracks. One for early karts and one ofr more modern karts. Both could have separate pit in and pit out access to their track.
Major concessions & display areas could be set up between the two tracks in an "infield" area.
It is a very interesting idea.
"The Biggest One"? Once in a lifetime deal?
2019? Two years to plan the event?
It is a neat discussion and, although I sometimes have that effect, I certainly wasn't intending to kill the discussion. In fact it's a great discussion because we need to find a way to preserve the past and the memory of all those who have contributed so much. Getting together for events is a great way to do that and finding a way to attract new blood is another. All of this needs to be passed down for the future generation to see and hear, but first we need to create a generation that wants to hear it.
In my opinion the split between the VKA and the VKCA should have never have happened. In numbers there is strength. United we stand, divided we fall. "Showers", "Racers" and "Riders" can all get along. To survive they must. Vintage Karting is many things to many different people...... There has to be room for everyone at all events.
Dave, you know me. I love the history. I love restoring them. I love showing them. I love running them. And, when I get the opportunity, I love to race them.
An existing event would probably work best. A new event scheduled in the winter just might work too. Florida, for the same reasons you point out, would be great for me. I just would hope that where ever it is it would include ALL factions of interest. While including everyone you stand a better chance of bringing more interest to the sport and in turn stand a better chance of adding new participants.
(Just as a side note, is anyone that you know of, documenting the history of karting. It's sad to think of but, in a very short period of time all of this will be lost)
i guess this is bench planning again. dave you misunderstood what i said. there are national events. you will know when you are attending one. because there are people from all over the nation attending them. what i said was that there was a perfectly good track in jacksonville florida. and when the name is mentioned there are always people wanting to know why we can't go back there. louie does a helluva good job out at riverside which i consider a national event and can be considered an international event because people from australia and brazil have attended it. jeff brown is doing an excellent job at new castle. and honestly if anybody was to promote jacksonville i wish it were jeff. scott and sam's avon event this year was also a national event. and bill's event in wisconsin. the problem is not finding another track to run another event. it's finding the people to attend the events we already have. i hear quincy is doing a helluva job. although i never attended. and let's not forget TBO. where the racers aren't welcome but the karters are. this all started out from comments made about chris's passing. and honestley chris wouldn't want a race named in his honor but an event like thompson and what ted is trying to do. chris said how much he enjoyed it. so if chris's name were to be affiliated with anything it should be with thompson. so ted i hope you read this.
Al...." is anyone that you know of, documenting the history of karting. It's sad to think of but, in a very short period of time all of this will be lost "
The true answer is, "NO"......unless you count the efforts of a few Vintage Karters that have posted articles from the old magazines to websites or Facebook, which means any history is very hit and miss regarding finding it .
We've seen what can happen when a Vintage Forum disappears when the content is not backed up and can not be restored !
The modern Karting publications may have some old early history, but except for maybe some anniversary you won't find any mention of the history in the publications.
Unless someone like Frank Weir writes a piece on our Vintage Events, Vintage history is just an after thought .
I'm not sure very many folks really care either, Duffy just passed away, a true "Icon" of Karting.......with the exception of the usual few posters here, Facebook, VKA, etc . did we see any stories ?
Many of us love Vintage Karting, but what's left is just a tiny niche of guys and a few gals that enjoy any of this.....so if that's true it's up to those that do care to do something !
But but but.......very few will do, that's life ......sure it's negative in nature, we do have enough interest to at least have a few people still participating and going to Vintage Events .......plus those folks that just like owning old vintage karts,
something to think about......thank goodness for what we do have !
Some of the old history can still be found on the new version of the old Vintage Kart Forum Blog or over at Old Mini Bike forum .
For example :
The History:
as recounted by Don Boberick (9/18/98)
"As to Go Kart Manufacturing, Co. Inc., it came into being in 1958. The principles, Duffy Livingstone and Roy Desbrow, were partners in a muffler business called "GP Mufflers," in Monrovia, California. Both Duff and Roy were experts at fabricating welded components. After seeing Art Ingles' one-off creation, Duffy and Roy fabricated their own versions and then improved on them. And, Duffy built a couple for friends (including Bill Jeffery who did the upholstery for everybody - that's Bill in the above racing photo). Bill Rowles, then a salesman of surplus materials in the L.A. area, was a frequent visitor at the GP Muffler shop in Monrovia. Bill had located a source of inexpensive engines from a failed West Bend rotary lawn mower venture. The three individuals, operating out of GP Muffler's facilities, formed a loose partnership to manufacture and sell kit components for karts. They called them "Go Karts" after the name Lynn Wineland, a commercial artist, had coined in an ad referring to GP's products. "Dart Kart" was another Lynn Wineland creation. The kits GP produced were offered mail order for $129 and the business grew like Topsy.
I can remember one day lounging in the small office at GP Muffler with Bill Rowles and Duffy Livingstone when the postman came by with a handful of envelopes addressed to "Go Kart Manufacturing" and saying "It looks like another thirty orders today, guys." That kind of demand became constant and it became apparent that the business had to be elevated several levels. I formed a corporation for the company and it leased a five acre facility in Azusa from AeroJet General Corporation. The company had six stockholders. Roy Desbrow, Duffy Livingstone and Bill Rowles were the principal stockholders. Jim Patronite (the company's accountant, who later formed Azusa Engineering), myself and the companiy's office manager were the three minor stockholders. Go Kart Manufacturing Co. Inc. continued to thrive in its Azusa facilities into 1963.
In 1962, Art Linkletter Enterprises made an offer of $750,000 for purchase of the shares. The offer called for $250,000 up front with the ba1ance of $500,000 to be paid at the end of one year. Go Kart declined that offer because the proposal gave management control to the Linkletter group prior to final payment and we did not trust their ability manage the company. Unfortunately Go Kart had, less than a year earlier, hired a very experienced, energetic and enthusiastic individual to manage the sales end of the business. To promote the product, Go Kart began to fly the six driver and four mechanic racing team, seven or eight karts plus spare parts to places like Mansfield, Ohio, Rockford, Illinois and the Bahamas. As spending escalated, sales hit a plateau industry wide. From just a handful of manufactures in 1959 the industry had grown to over thirty manufacturers by 1962. Go Kart failed to accommodate the recession in sales of its products by cutting back on spending. It went into bankruptcy.
One bit of irony in the demise of Go Kart Manufacturing Co, Inc. is that for a couple of years Go Kart was involved in trade mark litigation with Fox Body Company of Janesville, WI, over the trade mark "Go Kart." Fox called their kart the "Go Boy Kart" which we said was akin to calling a cola drink "Coca Boy Cola." Fox, on the other hand filed a petition to dissolve our trade mark "Go Kart," claiming it was generic. After Go Kart Mfg.. went through bankruptcy, Fox bought the "Go Kart" name for just a few dollars from the bankrupt estate. That was "Go Kart" from beginning to end--with a lot of fun in between.
Postscript:
Jim Patronite went on to make Azusa Engineering a success and it is still going strong with his son and nephew at the helm. Roy Desbrow has since passed on. Bill Rowles is enjoying life in southern California. (Anyone wishing to get in contact with Bill should contact Don Boberick for more info.)
Before the company went into bankruptcy I gave up karting to get back into aviation. Then I got into aviation law and moved out of Pasadena. Duffy Livingstone spent several years operating a specialty welding company in Costa Mesa. He is now retired and living in Grants Pass, Oregon. I just talked to him tonight and he is in the process of restoring his original FKE kart, "the Mole." He was able to recover all of the original parts except for the body shell. The original shell hangs in someone's garage in Monrovia but the individual (despite having obtained it for nothing from Jeff) refuses to now part with it. Unfortunately Duffy has not gotten into computers so we cannot attract him to your web site."